Relative pronouns

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Relative pronouns

2001-2002

Relative pronouns
Devi, 2002-02-15 18:34:08

I am also a little confused by how relative pronouns work in
Breton -- or rather how they don't work, since they don't seem to exist. In this case, English appears to be somewhat in between French and Breton as they often appear to be unnecessary.

Example that I think I understand:

The girl who is waiting for the bus isn't early.
(or just: The girl waiting for the bus isn't early.)

La fille qui attends le bus n'est pas tôt.

Ar plac'h a zo o c'hortoz ar bus n'eo ket abred.

Okay, so far, so good (I think)... but how does one say, for example:

The girl who you are waiting for isn't early.
(and: The girl you are waiting for isn't early.)

La fille que tu attends n'est pas tôt.

In Breton ????

mersi bras c'hoazh, David

Re: Relative pronouns
herve, 2002-02-15 23:19:18

Hello !
my english is very bad but not so much that i couldn't understand your question :

-the girl who you are waiting for :
-ar plac'h emaout o c'hortoz

a few examples ?

-the girl i' m thinking to
-ar plac'h a soñjan enni

-the girl i'm talking about
-ar plac'h a gomzan anezhi pe : ar plac'h a gomzan diwar he fenn

-the girl who (m ??§§) i remenber
ar plac'h am eus soñj anezhi

digarez evit ar fazioù e saozneg. Bez dinec'h avat : gwelloc'h eo ma brezhoneg eget ma saozneg

a galon

herveDevi wrote:
>
> I am also a little confused by how relative pronouns work in
> Breton -- or rather how they don't work, since they don't
> seem to exist. In this case, English appears to be somewhat
> in between French and Breton as they often appear to be
> unnecessary.
>
> Example that I think I understand:
>
> The girl who is waiting for the bus isn't early.
> (or just: The girl waiting for the bus isn't early.)
>
> La fille qui attends le bus n'est pas tôt.
>
> Ar plac'h a zo o c'hortoz ar bus n'eo ket abred.
>
> Okay, so far, so good (I think)... but how does one say, for
> example:
>
> The girl who you are waiting for isn't early.
> (and: The girl you are waiting for isn't early.)
>
> La fille que tu attends n'est pas tôt.
>
> In Breton ????
>
>
> mersi bras c'hoazh, David

Re: Relative pronouns
Devi, 2002-02-16 01:58:35

Re: Relative pronouns
Devi, 2002-02-16 03:48:14

herve wrote:
>
> Hello !
> my english is very bad but not so much that i couldn't
> understand your question :
>
> -the girl who you are waiting for :
> -ar plac'h emaout o c'hortoz
>
> a few examples ?
>
> -the girl i' m thinking to
> -ar plac'h a soñjan enni
>
> -the girl i'm talking about
> -ar plac'h a gomzan anezhi pe : ar plac'h a gomzan diwar he
> fenn
>
> -the girl who (m ??§§) i remenber
> ar plac'h am eus soñj anezhi
>
> digarez evit ar fazioù e saozneg. Bez dinec'h avat :
> gwelloc'h eo ma brezhoneg eget ma saozneg
>
>
> a galon
>
> herveDevi wrote:
> >
> > I am also a little confused by how relative pronouns work in
> > Breton -- or rather how they don't work, since they don't
> > seem to exist. In this case, English appears to be somewhat
> > in between French and Breton as they often appear to be
> > unnecessary.
> >
> > Example that I think I understand:
> >
> > The girl who is waiting for the bus isn't early.
> > (or just: The girl waiting for the bus isn't early.)
> >
> > La fille qui attends le bus n'est pas tôt.
> >
> > Ar plac'h a zo o c'hortoz ar bus n'eo ket abred.
> >
> > Okay, so far, so good (I think)... but how does one say, for
> > example:
> >
> > The girl who you are waiting for isn't early.
> > (and: The girl you are waiting for isn't early.)
> >
> > La fille que tu attends n'est pas tôt.
> >
> > In Breton ????
> >
> >
> > mersi bras c'hoazh, David

Re: Relative pronouns
Devi, 2002-02-16 03:55:17

herve wrote:
>
> Hello !
> my english is very bad but not so much that i couldn't
> understand your question :

> digarez evit ar fazioù e saozneg. Bez dinec'h avat :
> gwelloc'h eo ma brezhoneg eget ma saozneg

Oops -- sorry for the previous aborted message.... I just wanted to make sure that I understood this in Breton. I understand a fraction of it but not all... "Excuses for the errors in English. ???? -- My Breton is better than my English" (Mes excuses pour les erreurs en anglais - ??? - Mon breton est mieux que mon anglais).

mersi bras c'hoazh, David eus Seattle

Re: Relative pronouns
herve, 2002-02-17 22:27:50

DEVI !

I have benn told i made a mistake :

the girl i' m thinking to : ar plac'h emaon o soñjal enni

the girl i think to : ar plac'h a soñjan enni

If i understood well, you must use the progressiv form in breton when you use it in english.But it does'nt change anything about the relative pronoun.

a galon

herve
gs : the one you have to thank is Alan ar Gall

Re: Relative pronouns
Alan ar Gall, 2002-02-20 11:09:35

Herve wrote :
> the one you have to thank is Alan ar Gall

Since it seems that a denouncement campaign is open, I have to say that I
learned that fact from Steve Hewitt a few years ago :-) I'm not good at
english but we can trust Steve because he is indeed very competent at spoken breton.
He said that he hasn't seen a single difference between the uses of the
progressive form in the two languages.

Kenavo betek an distro

Alan ar Gall

Re: Relative pronouns
Devi, 2002-02-21 04:15:27

Alan ar Gall wrote:
>
> Herve wrote :
> > the one you have to thank is Alan ar Gall
>
> Since it seems that a denouncement campaign is open, I have
> to say that I
> learned that fact from Steve Hewitt a few years ago :-) I'm
> not good at
> english but we can trust Steve because he is indeed very
> competent at spoken breton.
> He said that he hasn't seen a single difference between the
> uses of the
> progressive form in the two languages.
>
> Kenavo betek an distro
>
> Alan ar Gall

Trugarez bras d'an holl -- Very interesting fact for me, since I am indeed more competent in English (or Amerikaneg in fact) than French (though my spoken French is quite acceptable if I may say so myself). I am however learning Breton via French (Ni a Gomz Brezhoneg, Oulpan, and Assimil) since I have found little satisfaction with the meager material available in English.

This makes me curious about the progressive present tense in the other Celtic languages. Anyone else know about this? English has always seemed a bit apart in my limited linguistic knowledge -- somewhat similar forms in Italian (estare) and Spanish (estar) and Occitan (I seem to recall, but no longer recall the actual verb) but still not like English. Nothing equivalent in German either that I recall.....

mersi bras, David

p.s. Alan, your written English certainly doesn't seem to need the disclaimer of "not good at English"!. My written French should be so good....

Re: Relative pronouns
herve gouedard, 2002-02-23 16:39:47

sory ! i can't tell you anything about the other celtic languages i didn't study yet !

a galon

herve

Re: Relative pronouns
Steve, 2002-02-25 10:42:55

To Devi and Alan ar Gall,

About the progressive in Breton, it is very similar to the English progressive, but not identical. It seems to correspond most closely to the situation in English at the end of the 18th century. For instance, there is no progressive passive in Breton, so "the house is being built" (which only begins in the very late 18th century - early 19th century) is "an ti so o ssevel", not "an ti so o vezañ saved". English appears to be innovating by increasingly allowing a "contingent" use of the progressive in which even stative verbs may be progressive: "people are knowing more and more about nuclear waste". In Breton there appears to be a certain correlation between control by the subject and progressive, so inanimate subjects often have a simple tense where English would have the progressive (all the following examples were heard in spontaneous, unprompted speech): "ne verw ked an dour c'hwazh?" "isn't the water boiling yet"; "ne diskorn ked an hent" "the road isn't thawing". Simple tenses with human subjects imply an absence of intention, whereas the progressive implies intention: "me a gav din e lar gewier ar mair" "I think the mayor [is lying] is wrong"; "me a gav din 'mañ ar mair o lared gewier" "I think the mayor is lying (trying to fool people)". Connected with this is the use of simple tenses with animate subjects to express the idea of "c'est plus fort que lui/he can't help it": "c'hwari 'ra lass" "he whooping it up". This example was heard a couple of weeks before the presidential election in 1995: "Chirac a dalc'h e fri da voanâd... c'hwessa a ra partoud" "Chirac's nose keeps on getting thinner/narrowing... he's sniffing everywhere [for votes]". The best example I ever heard showing this correlation of progressive with intention and simple tenses with lack of control is the following, about a seemingly endless truck journey: "o roulañ e oamp, med cheñch plass ne raemp ked" "we were driving along, but we weren't getting anywhere" - progressive for strong intention in the first clause: we were doing our best to drive; simple tense for lack of control in the second, but we weren't "changing places" = getting anywhere. Incidentally, this example shows how wrong some people are to disregard what they consider to be degenerate, Frenchified Breton: all the content words are indeed French, but the use of tenses expresses a fine nuance which is impossible to convey in so few words in French. We still have a lot to learn from spontaneous Breton, even though its vocabulary may be somewhat impoverished.

Re: Relative pronouns
Alan ar Gall, 2002-02-28 16:59:52

Thank you Steve. Very interesting, and I agree with your last sentence.

Alan ar Gall

2001-2002

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