Wellcome!

>Any english speaking folks around learning >breton?

Yes, me. Hello again, as we have met on the WWW before.

How are you studying Breton? At the moment I have nothing but my Assimil textbook and the few Breton messages on scb... I met some Bretons here in Vienna, but none of them speaks or even understands the language. Tough luck... What about corresponding regularly in Breton (say one email per week) to get some practice?

Regards,
Albert

salud dit Albert

since i went tru lesson 1 of kervarker I use this header!
about the breton mail, sounds good, let go for it.

I was in vienna, last year, nice city, but so far, so eastern from main europe! Interesting 'keltichen' artifacts at the Natural Science Museum in Vienna.

You may be in the same situation as I am--a descendant of Bretons who emigrated to America and were treated as French, and so we, their descendants, did our best to learn French and almost forgot that our ancestors were Breton-speakers.

Philippe Argouarch wrote:
-------------------------------
I decided to learn breton, the language of my ancestors.
I had started long time ago before I emigrated to the US, but now I have the time and the will . Any english speaking folks around learning breton?
Philippe

I am interested in your surname. I have always assumed 'Devine' to be Irish and never known anyone with the name to consider himself any other ethnicity. Is that the name of your Breton ancestors, or is it an Irisn name from intermarriage?

Yes -- I am slowly learning Breton here in Seattle. I am American, more or less fluent in French (married to French woman and I have lived in France). I'm very much interested in French regional languages. I studied Occitan for several years and can read it reasonably well. We will be moving to Brest next year for 6-9 months and we have friends who are bretonnant and send their kids to Diwan schools. I have the Per Denez course in French (Brezhoneg Buan hag Aes) and the Mark Kerrain course in French (Ni a gomz Brezhoneg). I am taking a break from it at the moment as I am too busy with work but will be getting back into once I return from a meeting in San Antonio at the end of January.

Kenavo, David

Demat deoc'h

Well au contraire to the rest of you my french ancestors went eastwards, thus I'm writinh from Finland. It is possible that some of my ancestors were Breton speakers, but I'm not sure about it. I'm learning a bit of the language anyway, and find it quite easy since I'm speaking Welsh already

Kentavo!

Demat!

How strange - I've got a Finnish name but live in Sweden, while you, Jonas, have a Swedish name and live in Finland - and we're both interested in Breton...

Howcome? I've been several times in Brittany, mainly working as a nature guide, but I've never really tried learning the language - yet. Well, I've bought a text book and a dictionary, but never got started. Not even my Breton friends in Paris speak Breton, so I've just learnt a few words.

Maybe this could be a start. In what ways do you find you can use the language, Jonas? Do you find it easy to learn? And what about Welsh - is it much more of a living language than Breton, or is the situation more or less the same?

Kenavo,

Jarmo Kukka

Demat (Hejsan och Terve)

A strange kind of irony indeed! I must admit that I don't know exactly what the situation of the Breton language is, byt I know the Welsh situation very well, since I've visited Wales quite a lot. The Welsh language is very strong in northern Wales (that's where I've mostly been). Everyone, and I really mean basicaly everyone, speaks Welsh all the time, and you certainly hear much more Welsh than English being spoken. I have in fact met some welshspeakers that don't speak English at all, and there are many welshspeakers that don't speak English particularly well. So yes, Welsh is very strong in northern Wales. In the south the situation is somewhat different, many places have a welshspeaking majority, but Welsh is not the only language, you would certainly here a lot of English too, especially in the larger cities of Cardiff and Swansea. On the other hand, the use of Welsh is growing very fast in the English-speaking places, and you would certainly hear much more Welsh in Cardiff today than ten years ago. More and more English-speaking parents send their children to Welshspeaking schools, and the result is that about 45% of the children speak welsh, compared with 26% of the mid-aged population. I have some welsh friends here in Finland, with whom I speak Welsh only. I hope this answers the question about the situation of the Welsh language, and I would certainly like to hear about the situation of Breton.

Kenavo (På återhörande / Kuulemiin)

Jonas

Jonas Holmqvist wrote:

> I would certainly like to hear about the situation of Breton.

Well, breton's situation is far not as briliant as welsh's... The number of REAL breton speakers - those who speak regularly, daily up to weekly - is estimated aroud 250 000, out of a total breton population of 4 million people. They were 1,1 million by the middle of XXth century, out of 3,3 million. When including those who have some knowledge of the language, you hardly reach the figure of 650 000.

Moreover, 3 speakers out of 3 are over 60 of age. The rate of younger 15-19 speaking breton is 0.5%, and in the 20-39 range they are only 5%. These are dramatic figures on the quantitative point of view.

Now considering the speaker attitude towards the language, most people in the elder generation are those who did not transmit it to their children, and hence they have a most dubious and passive behaviour. On the opposite, breton speakers of younger generations (up to 50) often have a stronger willingness to re-introduce breton as a social communication language. They (mostly) are those who faught for setting the Diwan educational system in breton, radio stations, local assocative courses and entertainment.

Will breton survive in the 21st century? For sure, but unless a new major step (legal recognition to some extent) is not reached, it may tuen as weak as Gaelic in Scotland.

Thanks for interesting answers, both of you, Jonas and Jañ-Mai. The situation is as I expected, more or less, and I feel sorry that the future of breton seems so sinister. Well, it only means we all have to be more firm in our efforts to save it! Which means I should really urge my Paris friends a bit more, to start with. They have young kids with grand-parents living in Pontivy, so there's a good reason, indeed.

I wish I'll get a chance to visit Wales one day. Sounds nice with people not even knowing English, Jonas! I almost had the same experience in Western Ireland, in Dingle, a couple of years ago. I went to the church on a Sunday morning, and all I heard around me was Gaelic. It made a strong impression on me, that time.

Jañ-Mai, excuse me for being so personal, but I've never seen a name like yours before. Is it breton?

Kenavo from Jarmo

Sure it is ! It is a dialectal form equivalent to the french for Jean-Marie (which is my identity card first name), and it is quite common in northern and inner Lower Brittany (Kerne-izel, Gorre-Leon, Treger) . The "standard" breton form would be Yann-Vari.

I was instantly nicknamed that way by my fellow breton learner who had some experience leaving in a breton speaking environment.

The Mai (pronounce ma-i) is a dialectal form for mari you find in well-known compound names like maiwenn, mainna...

Demat dit Jarmo!

I noticed you had been in the Dingle area, that's one of the places where I feel very much "at home". I have dozens of friends living there (all speaking Gaelic, of course), and I've visited the area quite a lot in the past two years. If I may ask you, when where you there and how did you enjoy it? Did you go to church in An Daingean (Dingle) itself or in Baile an Fheirtéaraigh (Ballyferriter)?

Kenavo
Jonas

hello Philippe

my english isn`t good but yes I want to learn the lenguage of my ancestors, and teach it to my family

could you bring me some hints?

I was born in mexico and here is not easy to find somo material in english or in spanish.

There are on-line lessons in English, Spanish, French, and German at http://www.kervarker.org/.

David

Demat deoc'h!

I have Dan ar Braz Cd with the song "Me zo ganet e kreiz ar mor", being sung by Gilles Servat and Yann-Fanch Kemener. I have also heard the song being sung by Yann-Fañch together with Didier Squiban at the album Enez Eusa. However, the words are pronounced in a very different way, even though it is the same singer, the pronounciation from "Enez Eusa" sounds like the Breton pronounciation I'm used to, while the "Dan ar Braz" version is totaly different. It would be interesting to know the reason for this, if you know it.

Kenavo

The original poem by Yann-Ber Kalloc'h was writen in classical Vannes dialect(Gwenedeg),
which prononciation in rather different from the "standard" prononciation, as proposed in
most breton courses.
On the Dan ar Braz CD, YF Kemener and G Servat follow more or less the Vannes prononciation.
Actualy, YFK is from inner Brittany and his prononciation is influenced by his native usage.
GS learned Breton and follows the "classical Vannes dialect" prononciation.

I do not have the Kemener/Squiban record, but I guess that on this record, YFK follows the
"standard" prononciation.
This song is very popular and is often sung by choirs. They often adapt the prononciation
to the local usage.

Example (ë like english "u" in "but", é like french "blé", è like english "bear", ö like french "feu"
"eu" like english "fur", u like french "dur", "ou" like english "look" ):
Vannes dialect :
Më zad ë wé èl i dadöw ur martolod

"standard" breton :
Ma zad a oa vèl é dadou eur martolod

Unified spelling :
Ma zad a oa 'vel e dadoù ur martolod

Trugarez dit

My ancestors would probably have been speaking the Gwenedeg (Vannes) dialect, but I think it is in an even more crucial state than the other dialects, am I right? Speaking of dialects, I would have some questions about them:
1. How bif is the difference between the various dialects? (Which is is closest to Welsh and Cornish?)
2. Which dialect is the strongest?
3. In Wales, it is possible to travel within a relatively large area and hear Welsh being the first tongue through the whole area. In Ireland you can't travel many miles, even in na Gaeltachtaí, before you only hear English around you. If I went to Breizh, in which parts of the country would I hear Brezhoneg, and in which would I hear only or mostly French?

I have been looking for answers to these questions without much succes, so any help would be most welcomed.

Kenavo
Jonas Holmqvist

I'm afraid wherever you go in brittany today, you wouldn't have to travel far before hearing french. The celebrated "Sébillot line" going from Plouc'ha (northwest of Sant-Brieg) to Susinioù (southeast of Gwened) that marked the limit between Lower (breton-speaking) an Upper (gallo speaking) Brittany, although still alive in people's mind, doesn't mean much today. If a map showing the density of breton speakers were set today, it surely would look like a tigers's skin. Indeed, almost everybody uses french in daily life, while breton speakers are a significant minority (over 10%) in cities of Upper Brittany (Naoned, Roazhon, Sant-Brieg, Sant-Maloù, Redon, Gwennrann...).

But there are rural areas where the rate of breton speaking people remained high enough for giving you an opportunity to met some by chance. In Lower Brittany, preferably not close to the shore (although breton speaking remained vivid in some coastal areas), especially in the "mountains" area (Karaez / Montroulez /Kastellin / Ar Gemene), the "sanctuary" of traditional dance singing. Unfortunately those speakers are generally eldery people, so these areas are not likely to remain long...

What is moslty recent and a good sign for the future, is seeing breton speakers in Cities all over Brittany gathering, setting beginings of a social life in breton. Bars, entertainments, public meetings, various activities coordinated by local cultural unions may result in giving a minorized language some community life and social visibility.

May I recommend you reading the soc.culture.breton newsgroup FAQ at http://www.bretagnenet.com/scb/, especially the 1.4, 3.1, 4.2 points ?
A small map showin the limits of Upper and lower brittany may be found at
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/brezhoneg/gwechall.html

Of the 4 main dialects, 3 of them are close enough (Kerneveg, Leoneg, Tregerieg) while the 4th (Gwenedeg) is a bit aside. The differences consists mostly in pronunciation, to a lesser extend in vocabulary (on the latter point it is again more flagrant between Gwenedeg and others).

Each dialect is mostly homogeneous regarding pronunciation, although on the fringes of two dialects there is a kind of continuity zone. By the way Yann-Fañch Kemener was born in Kerne area but very close to the Gwened area, and its pronunciation is a mix between both archetypes.

Any educated speaker (that is one having learned to read and write, thus having some knowledge of litteracy breton) has no major difficulty understanding some other dialect speaker, provided the latter is goodwilled and does not use higly local lingo. It is common hearing native speakers saying they don't understand radio and TV programs generally using "standard" breton : they precisely miss that litteracy knowledge.

There is no strongest dialect. Leoneg has long been presented as "the purest", mostly because the wide majority of priests, once the only educated breton speakers, came from that area. I think kerneveg speakers are the more numerous group, but they should not be over 40%. The Gwenedeg is surely the weakest (not numerically I mean), its speakers often have a negative image of it; but younger generations have a better self confidence. And a significant number of speakers (new learners, inhabitants of Upper Brittany) do not find themselves speaking a particular dialect, but a "standard" breton.

Concerning dialects, I will add some things to what Jañ-Mai said :
Since the 18th century at least, there have been "literary" forms of 3 dialects :
Leoneg, Tregerieg and Gwenedeg.
These were used by the priests for hymns, religious books, lives of saints (buhez ar sent), and religious publications.
The hymns are still popular and are sung during the "pardons".
Elderly people, who did not learn to read and write breton often learned cathechism in breton and always know some hymns and prayers.
These written dialectal forms were the bases to the modern unified spelling.

Trugarez, Jañ-Mai ha Jean-Francois!

If I have interpreted what you've written, the the situation of Breton is closer to that of Irish than to that of Welsh. There aren't any sizeable communites where Breton is the only mean of communication, but instead it is used in networks in the cities.
Would this be a correct (if simplifed) description?
How much Bretonspeakers are there in the cities of Kemper, Brest, Naoned, Roazhon, Gwened, Gwengamp and Tregor?

Kenavo!

I'd rather say out of former fully breton speaking areas, there remains networks of speakers, mostly in rural inner areas ; and beside, in cities (where breton had vanished decades if not centuries ago), networks are emerging. The first ones still form the majority of speakers, but they are ageing, while the seconde ones represent the hope for an uprise of breton being used in modern life.

We have not yet results of general 1999 census (that included, for the FIRST TIME EVER IN FRANCE, questions about the languages in use; on samples of population only). I may mention an estimated 25 000 speakers in Roazhon district. I think the figure could be 40 000 for Brest district, and around 50 000 for Naoned. For other cities, I have no datas.

Note: The "Tregor" city you mention may be "Landreger" instead? That city is rather small (5 000 inhabitatnts ?). A small table of main cities may be found at:

http://www.bretagnenet.com/scb/fgeo.html#intro

or (in breton):

http://www.bretagnenet.com/scb/douar.html#rakskrid

I can take my example which, I think, is rather typical. I was born in 1962 in inner Brittany and grew up in a farm.
I belong to the first generation in this area who were not taught Breton at home. My father and mother learned French at school and Breton is still their everyday language, at home and with people of their generation, or older, that they know.
I have never heared my father talking french to his parents, who are both dead now.
When he went to school, in 1939, none of the children in the class could speak a word
of french.
When I went to school in 1967, all of us had french as mother tongue.
When I was a child, in the 60s and early 70s, everybody around (parents, grand-parents, neighbours, uncles and aunts) spoke Breton and all of them (exept one) educated their children in French.
In the context of this period, it was just THE normal decision.
I can say that those of my generation who lived in such a environment have a PASSIVE knowledge of the language. They understand more or less the local spoken language, have a basic vocaburary and could learn easily if they tried (most actualy don't).
I personnaly learned to read and write breton when I was 19 (and I am still learning !).
It came very quickly because of this passive knowledge, but I will never be as fluent as my parents.
Nota : My Breton is still better than my english ;-)

Abaoe 1995	Brezhoneg · Français · English · Español · Deutsch